as i was saying…

what if a good deed
a person gave a gift to a second
person, that caused the second person
to think twice when considering suicide
then the first person swore at a tv
so a car dropped on them
leaving them in utter misery
for three days before they died
but the person with the gift remembers kindness
so a good act lives on
and once it reaches big enough good
to overcome the bad of swearing at the tv
how does karma undrop the car from them?

if a person teaches other people
to be good
does it work like a pyramid scheme
where they get a percentage
of all that good karma?

if a bad thing happens to you
right after a good thing happens
with no time in between to be either
good or bad
how can the bad thing be karma?

if only some things happen from karma
and the rest is happenstance
do the bad things count as time served?

if you are paying for a bad past life
then how is it possible to ever
have a good soul when misery leads to poor behavior?

if karma is supposed to take care of
and punish a person
but that punishment happens
by a second person robbing
and killing them… does that murderer
get bad or good karma for killing another?

if karma is in charge of the killing
is karma then charged herself with bad karma?

there is more, lots more
with conclusion of
nonsensical deity
if karma knows all causality
and makes changes for punishment
why can’t earlier changes be made to prevent
the bad behavior?

even human teachers are able to do that
if one human being is mean to another
and gets bad things happening (bad karma)
then beats his wife….is karma guilty
as an accessory to assault?

the idea of deserving reward or punishment
is very earthly concept
where that being which is in a position
of power
decides to reward or punish
as a means of control for future action

now if karma punishes and rewards all
then is not all action at this time
a fault of karma itself?

how often does punishment lead to better behavior
if there is no charge, no explanation of what the punishment is for?

if a person gets kicked by a second person
and the first person does nothing to stop them,
saying “karma will get them.” then when the second person
walks down the road farther and kicks a third person…

is it the first person’s fault? and therefore they deserved to get kicked
and were getting the bad karma they deserved?
does this mean the second person can go
around kicking everyone and not receive any bad karma?

if he does get bad karma, a piano drops on him —
does that fix all the people he kicked?

no….but if the first one he kicked
had stopped him instead of allowing
others to also be kicked….that would fix all the people
kicked, by preventing those wrongs.

so in this case, if karma is and were true
would it not be an evil demon,
perpetuating grief and chaos among mankind?

if so, should not karma
be subject to more bad karma
than any human has ever known?

hunger itself, will create a centering
or narrowed perception that is proportionately
concerned more on the self
with less desire to see larger pictures
and larger cause and effect

belief in a caste system
creates different rules
for different levels of society

those making the rules
traditionally not having to live by the rules
this is what we call oppression

an oppressed society where injustice
is rampant and the oppressed
are set up to condone their own oppression

that is not just an oppressed society–
that is a doomed society

is a free society with justice for all
also free from karma?

i like to think so…if there is to be payback
let the person doing the paying back have the credit

if karma wants it, she’s going to have to fight me for it

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12 thoughts on “as i was saying…

  1. Karma is not what many think it is. It is the effect of Cosmic or Universal law coming into effect after cause. Cause is your action – effect is the result of those actions. A window does not care if you break it but if it belongs to someone else then you owe them a window. You skip town and do not pay for window. Somewhere down the line, you receive a broken appliance purchased from a Online store. Before you get a refund, they go out of business. How much money are you out? Close to the price of a new window. In any example, what you do to harm another may not be the exact retribution you receive back but it will be of equal measure of pain, misfortune, or whatever. If you intentionally harm anyone, the fault lies with you and so does the karmic debt. It is not anyone else’s fault. Just like when you do good for the sake of good, the blessing comes back to you, perhaps in ways you might never expect. That is my understanding of karma and how it works. There are always grey points where you can get into splitting a hair with a feather for want of a better phrase to describe that which our limited minds will never fathom but if you are a keen observer of life and people, you will see that in most cases, karma plays out either good or bad overall in a person life. Good people may suffer but good things will happen
    to them. Ruthless people will get away with for so long, and then they will reap the whirlwind, and wonder why.
    That’s if they are still alive. I’ve watched this cycle over and over again. Perhaps it’s just my belief in good over evil, a Cosmic order to this world, and a Cosmic system of retribution that no one gets around – no matter what they may believe. Perhaps it’s just a coincidence – somehow I don’t think so. And that’s more my two cents but your post definitely involves deep thought and consideration.

    • karma belief is on the same level as believing a person has a severe illness because of sin. just as i don’t look at a woman dying of cancer as a filthy beast that must have sinned untold amounts…. i don’t look at a person loved and treasured and living to 105, as obviously being sinless. i don’t believe in sin, but that’s just an example. noting a coincidence is not proof of “karmic causality” and creating it to be “cosmic” and beyond human comprehension, actually speaks more against the theory than for it. is the same as saying that the magician who makes a train disappear, must be working actual magic since no one has explained to you how he did it.

      i know where you are coming from, and understand that. but it is the same go to hell clause that runs through the christian faith. don’t worry, everyone gets their fair punishment or reward. and who benefits most from this type of pervasive ideology within a society?

      • well regardless of whether you believe in God or are an atheist – you still have a philosophy in play. It is your idea of life, perception of life, etc. The only philosophy worth anything IMO is one that works for you. I do not
        believe in eternal punishment because it is illogical at best. However, cause and effects are very hard to disprove.
        In the end and final analysis, you are charged with either believing something or believing nothing. I choose to believe in something, and my life experience of almost 60 years has proved this out time and again. It is not a matter of sin, it is a matter a cause and effects. I don’t believe anyone gets around this because it is universal

        law. It is obvious that those who do not play by these rules or any rules for that matter, who on the surface benefit the most by taking advantage of some moral code but in my world/philosophy – they will not get away with anything and will have to pay for it down the road when they come back here in another lifetime. And they may have to pay for it over many, many lifetimes. Obviously, I believe in reincarnation. And I do not believe in coincidences at all regarding cause and effects. Otherwise, this is all random events with no rules, no consequences for actions, and no need to believe anything other than we live, we die, the end. On the same token, I do not believe any major religion is correct nor forcing others to believe what I believe. it is a philosophy based on
        my experience and a very thorough investigation of what is out there to believe. It works for me but may not
        work for others. Forced compliance is not acceptable at all to me. neither is killing people for religion.
        But i am an idealist at heart and we’re a long ways from the world I’d like to live in…

  2. karma is the yoga of work, an individual effort with no time limit…to do no harm, to all beings and our self…arising from a culture that identifies existence within a unified field which is divine…

    your serial kicker perchance may encounter the mother of all kangaroos, who shall send him crashing downhill, dislodging a stone that ricochets and breaks open, a radiant gem within…which reflects enough light at the right moment, to divert the course of an asteroid endangering all mankind…

    and the beat goes on…

    • it is a focus upon the reactive state of the self, only. and you and i both know that usa interpretation doesn’t even follow traditional. yet my contention is that greater harm is caused by the implementation of karma itself.

      i very much believe in self-fulfilling prophecy. self-fulfilling prophecy is an actual facet of the human psych. you believe you are unworthy, then you will create a reactive process that will prove to yourself that you are unworthy.

      now this “phenomena” is what gets mistaken for the karma. what also gets mistaken for it, is that those who are highly “effective” –= create large amount of change. the reason it seems that the giant millionaire or the go-getter boss get to go up in flames …. is that their rate of effectiveness creates a greater chance. the ratio is higher.

      now applying to the karmic “self” ideal of no harm done by the self. that works in a society only if all adhere to same pretext. as in the entire world. or it works if guards that do not adhere to the ideals, are circling to protect those with the ideals. or it works if one is alone. however, in a society of mixed belief, it contributes to inaction. which may or may not be a benefit at that time. often the benefit to oneself is greater through inaction.

      so i’m looking at the larger pictures where i very much believe there is a problem with karmic precepts working out in USA society. plus with computers …. oh boy, to sit and believe everything that happens with them is a direction of punishment on the self? yea that’s …

  3. yours is not the active karmic deity, but rather a creation-deity — where all is set to fall inevitably into place. is similar to deism …. and i’m more deist than anything else. so i see the same ….. am approaching from different angle to find that one grain of sand that shouldn’t be making a pearl…..

  4. and regarding this whole thing — to both of you. what i am considering, is how the DIS-belief will effect the psychology of those from karmic/indian origins. dis-belief is a very real facet of any religious experience, and often happens through investigation and dis-satisfaction.

  5. i appreciate the thoughtful nature of response. but am not approaching this as a personal journey or something for myself. am looking at the widespread ramification of hindu assimilation into Judeo-Christian culture.

    what i believe in is being the devil’s advocate. finding a little truth. keeping the discussion going. and crazy. am concerned for each and every person i have met while locked in a crazy jail — i am concerned with outcome.

    (in the last place, the “workers” were actually more mentally unhealthy than the detainees ….talk about a role reversal)

    and i have hypothesized that any religion, will be effective up until the half-way mark. then will break into other versions. this because, the purpose of religion is settled upon differences.

    any form of deism is a greatest common denominator. and scientifically upheld by the statement that we do not have a world minus ‘god’ — or minus reactive-realities — for a comparison to determine if those reactive realities involve a “force” or determination or if they involve happenstance where man applies his own understanding to elicit “pattern.” now pattern, is something even “lower” animals use — to predict future outcome. and then we are back down to fear and survival.

    so increases within belief of patterns not created by the Self — is indicative of a release or let-go of fear and/or importance of survival. now in other species, this type of despondency can be noted in those members locked in a zoo, for example. in comparison to their non-detained counterparts.

    there is a lot to it …. but the benefit of a theology or philosophy to one, does not mean is a benefit in a group-sense. industrialization has made its own changes that are creating waves.

  6. far as me and mine — the belief centers on whatever floats your boat. many times, the centering upon one or another philosophy will create a preclusion of other viable — and even helpful — depictions or understandings of reality. case in point, the large Mormon population i get to study close-up at this juncture in my life. there is much they do not learn … as in knowledge …. due to a cemented form of hierarchy settled to benefit those climbing their ladders. the focus is climbing the religious or social ladders, rather than a focus upon self. now this would actually be a viable system, if it were not for the favoritism that occurs in the “upper echelons” and how those members “play” in the real world for financial and person wealth. so they are basing their gain, upon the loss of many others. so i just look at that, and wonder about changes or better approaches. i also note the differences, between those “raised” within a religious belief, and those who are “new” to it.

    for that is a telling factor to how far into their own philosophies the group has driven. if i can observe without adhering myself to any or all of the floating miasma of “belief” — then are better able to be more effective myself, within abilities to …..well, help.

    i don’t know what that “makes” me. except that i do know i was raised chanting “good will to man” over a zillion sundays. i do know my background. would have to go live in India to determine the differences for what we are discussing here. to truly get a feel …. however, i could hypothesize that the idealism of karmic retribution as a foundation of societal understanding, will and does create an apathy toward guiding or creating changes for bettering the whole.

  7. it may be that your perception of karma, as a system of reward and punishment, rather than a continuous mindfulness of doing that which is good in this life, and accepting hardship, when it occurs, with the same equanimity as ease, is too much a focus upon retribution…as it is considered in Western theologies…

    rather think of it within the framework of evolution and the egoless impulse of life into life, certainly without need for national borders, nor any central purpose to achieve its purpose solely on Earth

    • well that’s close, looking at any philosophy is also looking at how it might be misused or applied. even in the twelve step “greater powers ” there is a problem with giving up on not changing the things that are more difficult to change. calling it wisdom, when wisdom is an absolute. i understand the nature of acceptance. but i also understand, that if….. if that were my own approach, i would be living my life in a state mental institution. it is only the dogged nature, to not accept. to find my own answers, where the only threat is the realization of how many of those “answers “are generated from without, rather than from within. but to realize that is to discover forms of humility. and the fact that we are all products of our environment. example…. a lackadasical attitude from the protestant groups surrounding the mormons, leads to a misperception by the mormons on how greatly other beliefs might object to their faith-structure. so that live and let live has done the mormons no favors. cloistered, then the “only i am correct ” feature of that faith becomes a scorn for anything outside of that cloister…. a form of group hate which then manifests in all kind of fun ways. accepting hardship is difficult for many to grasp outside of believing they deserve that hardship. so then to believe in deserving leads back to a type of despair. i’ve seen, it and noted that in large percentage of subjects, this does not lead to gracious or live and let live behavior, but what would be considered the opposite of that. and note then the degree of legal enforcement or over-control that dances dangerously close to fascism. these ties are just hypothetical, but enough for me to see a problem arising…. because we are not looking at an oppressed people accepting karmic idealism… usa is different environment. while hinduism would suit to reduce the unrest generated by mass poverty, here in a combination of juseo christian framework….. might be looking at a different result. i see problems. so a stop gap necessary.

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